BLEACH Volume 49 poem :Ichiruki vs Ichihime_Part 1

            "I wonder if I can keep up with the speed of the world without you in it"

            I honestly thought that it was undoubtedly about Ichigo referring to Rukia after the infamous "kimi" issue.However,some people really want to see it a different way,refusing to see it as an Ichigo--->Rukia poem.Therefore,after proving that Ichigo was referring to a female,so it can't be Zangetsu,here comes another argument saying that it could be Ichigo--->Orihime poem.

Here's the argument presented...

that's interpretation. especially since ichigo in that book said that he doesn't miss rukia outright. there's no saying which one is telling the truth.....the poem or ichigo himself. i can interprete it by saying that since the you is refer to a female it could be orihime, especially since in that book we have orihime spending time with ichigo  in his room and orihime sliding down the pipe and making gag jokes. the poem was talking whether/can or cannot he keep up with the speed of the world without her in it. if it's rukia the poem was talking about, it would have been an affirmative statement that he cannot keep up with the world that has no rukia, since rukia is really not around....he doesn't need to wonder. it's a wondering question poem which only indicates that the person at that time is still by his side and he wonders whether he can still hang on if she doesn't stay with him anymore. hence i think the poem talks about orihime.


i could be wrong.--->ichihime (I assumed)

Visit here to see the complete debate details about this.

Therefore,let me copy paste this part...

how shall i deal with this.....let's reason this out logically(which of course, people could say it is logical fallacy) and you tell me whether what my stand make sense or not. i am not even going to tell the 'oh so great orihime is to ichigo' that's why the poem is talking about orihime bullshits. we will only go by all the facts that are laid out by us.


there are two train of thoughts when people talk about authorial intention.
a) kubo tite being obvious.....he would slap to the readers' face what he want them all to know.
b) kubo tite being subtle..... he enjoys when people get different meanings from them(not necessary from poems), he provoke people to think and analyze when reading his work. ie he did say there is not necessary one meaning to the story.


agreed?


let's then look at the ichiruki's analyze explaination about 49 poem. -- the obvious one - kubo tite slapped on us and see what they say.... 

- Translators precise that the you isn't the same as the you for Zangetsu, but is more female like.- Poems comes right after the IchiRuki separation and Ichigo lost his powers. The word "without you in it" means that someone is absent and 2 entities are: Zangetsu and Rukia. Though it's not Zangetsu, Rukia's also female contrary to haters beliefs *le gasp*

the you is a female and you not being in the world. rukia is the only female not in the world.


is that all??


now look at my analyze explainations about 49 poem -- and you tell me whether it falls on the simple obvious one or the in depth analytical one.

point 1
僕はついてゆけるだろうか 君のいない世界のスピードに
as for i(male), able to keep up, can ?(darouka) with the world that you(female) have not in


"Can I really keep up with the speed of the world...where you're not in here?"


I wonder if I can keep up with the speed of the world without you.


here's the thing. there is only two answer to the question that use the word 'can'(darouka).


can/cannot i go to toilet?
yes you can/no you can't.


can/cannot i eat this cake?
yes you can/no you can't.


in japanese, kana(かな) is one way of saying 'i wonder' or express uncertainty over the future/what is he supposed to do now which would have more than two answers usually
明日雪が降るかな。.....i wonder whether it will snow tomorrow or not--yes/no.
何を着ていこうかな。....i wonder what to wear?---whatever thing you want.
これいくらかな。....i wonder how much is this?--well the price is.


if you can't see where i'm getting at is this....'kana' gives impression that the speaker is wondering of something that is to come on the way(foreseened) or is in present. speaker knows it is there/on the way but still wonders what to do with it.

to put it shortly......if in the context of rukia not being in the world for 17 months, and he is still wondering IN HIS MIND whether he can or cannot 'kana' would have been aptly used.


'darouka' the can/cannot is obviously for something that is not to be foreseen and unexpected. it's like::


i'm not sure whether i can or cannot keep up with the speed of the world that doesn't have you in it. i can keep up with the speed of the world when you are in it.....but when (OR IF) you are not in it, i'm not sure whether i can'


which leads to another question....can 'kana' be used instead for orihime? ichigo expects orihime to be taken out of this world from him? no. he doesn't think orihime will leave him anytime soon, but if she did......i leave this to you guys to answer.


point 2:
the poem is a monologue of his mind. he should know what he is facing, how he is facing ESPECIALLY when he is experiencing it now. AND HE SHOULD BE HONEST. UNLESS it's something that he did not experience, he would wonder what is like to be. rukia's leaving is something that he experienced and he's still not sure to say that he cannot keep up with the speed of the world where she's not in it? this is not the first time rukia is separated from him.


What if Kubo were to intend to meant it as Orihime; Orihime's leaving is not something that he truly experienced? hence he is not sure whether he can do it if it really happened?


point 3
speed of the world......is it romantic word to be used? depending on how it is used. two type of speed.....fast and slow.


the world is fast paced, i have so many things to think about and settled. i don't have time to breath. there you came and asked me to sit and laugh, you make me forgot my problems for a while as you make me eat those throwaway breads....i breath a little, my mind cleared a little.


or


the world is moving slow snail paced. i have nothing to do but wait for the life to pass slowly uninterestingly. you spiced up my life. you come with weird jokes and funny gags. i nearly jumped and got heartattack when you do something dangerous.


which world speed do you think ichigo's world is in book 49 that he must have Rukia, and how can she help him deal with it.......romantically?
make it a fast world so that ichigo wouldn't feel lethargic....always feeling adventurous fighting hollows and demons.....is that even romantic??
make it a slow world so that ichigo....i don't know.....i can't imagined rukia trying to make ichigo stop everything, forget what his burden are.....ichigo, you go and rest while i fight the hollows for  you......is that even romantic??

what now then is your stand? do you still think kubo tite is the type of person who would do the obvious one, slapping the glaring conclusion to everyone? or perhaps does the opposite.....use it as a red herring while putting in other hints and there for people to catch the true meaning when combining all the clues?


i don't want to hear your stand because i can't say you are right or wrong; i am not kubo tite.


neither you are kubo tite. you cannot say that kubo tite will never resort to red herrings or hide the real meanings behind so deep. nor can you say my interpretation of the poem is wrong.


Just because everyone else is saying it, doesn't mean everyone is right. especially when the reasonings are simple enough to be parroted.

My take on this...


kubo tite being subtle..... he enjoys when people get different meanings from them(not necessary from poems), he provoke people to think and analyze when reading his work. ie he did say there is not necessary one meaning to the story.


Actually,what KT said COMPLETELY is...

Kubo: "There are bits in the manga where I draw scene that wouldn’t get the reader’s attention too much. I always put all my effort into my manga but how each audience read my manga are different. So it’s really important to make sure they would end up all having a similar idea of my story, but then again, it’s really up to them how they read the manga, but then there are scenes where I want the audience to be touched, so it’s really hard."

           Don't be confused,KT never said that there is not necessary ONE meaning to the story.What he said actually is,"It's really important to make sure they (the readers) would end up all having a "SIMILAR" idea of my story"

           He did say that there are bits in the manga that he drew in a way that won't get the readers attention too much (hidden messages,but not actually hidden,it's just not that easy to notice).He's putting all his effort in his manga,why?because he wants the readers to get the message that he was trying to convey in the story,but unfortunately,each readers/audience read his manga differently.

That's why,when he said...

"It's really important to make sure they (the readers) would end up all having a SIMILAR idea of my story"

           He means that there is ONE "specific" meaning to his story,hence he was saying that the readers should end up having a SIMILAR idea.

And when he said...

but then again, it’s really up to them how they read the manga

           It's because he couldn't control how people use to interpret things,and he should not tell it by words,he would only tell his story in his manga.

That's why he said...

but then there are scenes where I want the audience to be touched, so it’s really hard

           If the readers interpreted the scenes in a wrong way,then they wouldn't be touched or feel the emotion that KT wants to pass onto them.

hence,what he means there is...

           It's hard to make everyone interpret his story CORRECTLY/similarly.There would always be some people who would/might interpret it in different way.It's just normal,since every individual have their own way of interpreting things around them.

           All in all,KT is saying that there is definitely ONE specific meaning in everything he wrote in the story.No matter how many ways people can interpret each scenes,there is only ONE Kubo sensei's intention.Hence,there would only be ONE correct interpretation among the multiple arguments/assumptions that are made by everyone of us.

Cleared?

           I will skip the part where there is an elaboration for the meaning of the words "I wonder" and "If I can" since I knew that everyone already knows the meaning and the use of those words,eh?

Now,I'll start with the "it could be Orihime"

Did you noticed this?

i'm not sure whether i can or cannot keep up with the speed of the world that doesn't have you in it. i can keep up with the speed of the world when you are in it.....but when (OR IF) you are not in it, i'm not sure whether i can'

            It says things clearly...Ichigo should be able to keep up with the speed of the world as long as she (Orihime) was there,right?It was only when she's gone that he wouldn't know if he can.If this is true,then why am I seeing Ichigo being bored with his life?Chad saying that he's been a sad sight,Keigo pointing out that his grades are dropping,Isshin pointing out that he finally become able to say something about SS (shinigamis),but ends up avoiding the subject...those things shows that Ichigo was still unable to move on,even he himself noticed it...

           Ichigo should be having a higher grades since he have plenty of times for studying,unlike when he was still a shinigami who have some sleepless nights because of his extra responsibilities,but what we have instead is,Keigo pointing out that his grades are dropping.He should be happy because he finally got what he wanted (have a life that he couldn't see spirits),but Chad commented that he's been a sad sight since he lost his powers.

           Those things are all pointing to one conclusion...Ichigo was unable to keep up with the speed of the world,even though Orihime is there with him.

Another thing,I just couldn't help but point this out...

it could be orihime, especially since in that book we have orihime spending time with ichigo in his room and orihime sliding down the pipe and making gag jokes 

the world is fast paced, i have so many things to think about and settled. i don't have time to breath. there you came and asked me to sit and laugh, you make me forgot my problems for a while as you make me eat those throwaway breads....i breath a little, my mind cleared a little.

            I've never seen Ichigo laughed (a genuine one) since he lost his powers...maybe,I just happened to skip that page?In any case,I didn't see Ichigo forgetting his problems for a while,or having a clear mind (though little) when he was eating bread and drinking tea with Orihime...O.o

Instead,what I see is this...

            If you haven't noticed,when Ichigo repeated the word "intuition" it's the part where he noticed that there's something going on,something's wrong.In other words,this adds up to the pressure of being powerless,hence his nakamas couldn't say everything to him,because he doesn't have his powers anymore,and made them worried about him.Ichigo didn't pushed the subject,because he knew that Orihime won't tell him anyway,because he was powerless.And to make things even shorter,this conversation only adds up to his depression.

And about this one...

the world is moving slow snail paced. i have nothing to do but wait for the life to pass slowly uninterestingly. you spiced up my life. you come with weird jokes and funny gags. i nearly jumped and got heartattack when you do something dangerous.

I've never seen Ichigo being entertained with her jokes?

            One more thing...if eating bread and drinking tea,making some gags makes Ichigo wonder about being able to keep up with the speed of the world,or spicing things up for him,why would he be grateful towards Orihime alone?Isn't Karin and Yuzu do this with him as well?(minus the gag).If we are going to talk about gags,Keigo is there too.In other words,Orihime is not the only one who does those things for him.

            One thing that this person needs to realize.This is not the matter of Ichigo being grateful towards Orihime,especially,when she is not the only person that Ichigo could be grateful to...

            Everyone knows that Ichigo is not happy without his powers.If he is depressed because he doesn't have his powers anymore,then the only thing that can make him happy,is to have that powers back.That is what Chad was trying to do there.Don't you think Ichigo would be grateful about this?However,the poem was only referring to a female,so...

             Judging by the things that happened in the manga,can we really say that Ichigo is referring to Orihime in that poem?Orihime who is not the only one in the Human World that Ichigo could be grateful to.She's not the only one among the people who are with Ichigo in the Human World who's doing their best to cheer him up,so it shouldn't be her alone whom Ichigo should be thinking of being able to keep up with the speed of the world,if he's talking about someone who is currently there with him.For the last part,Ichigo is still struggling to cope up with the speed of the world,even though Orihime is there with him,so... 

Now.let's see the "it was Rukia"

point 1 :


if you can't see where i'm getting at is this....'kana' gives impression that the speaker is wondering of something that is to come on the way(foreseened) or is in present. speaker knows it is there/on the way but still wonders what to do with it.

A/N :

            Actually,the speaker is wondering if that time (him being able to keep up with the speed of the world) would come/happen in the future.The speaker is not sure if it will ever come on his way (being able to keep up with the speed of the world),that's why he was wondering.


darouka' the can/cannot is obviously for something that is not to be foreseen and unexpected. it's like::


i'm not sure whether i can or cannot keep up with the speed of the world that doesn't have you in it. i can keep up with the speed of the world when you are in it.....but when (OR IF) you are not in it, i'm not sure whether i can'

A/N :

           To make things clear,Ichigo never  mentioned the "if I can't".Ichigo is only wondering "if he CAN".Please don't add a word to a sentence,especially,if you wanted to analyze it's meaning.Adding a word to a sentence will affect its entire meaning.

point 2 :

the poem is a monologue of his mind. he should know what he is facing

             The thing that Ichigo was currently facing at that moment,is living a life without Rukia.

how he is facing ESPECIALLY when he is experiencing it now. AND HE SHOULD BE HONEST.

             Ichigo is facing it with inability to keep up with the speed of the world.Read here and here

UNLESS it's something that he did not experience, he would wonder what is like to be. 

             The thing that he haven't experienced yet since their separation,is being able to move on/get over with it even though it was 17 months already,that's why,Ichigo is now (in that moment) wondering if he CAN.

rukia's leaving is something that he experienced and he's still not sure to say that he cannot keep up with the speed of the world where she's not in it?

            Again,Ichigo is not wondering if he CAN'T,why?Because he knows it already,he was unable to keep up with the speed of the world,because she's not there with him.The only thing that Ichigo is wondering about is if he CAN.Make no mistake on that part,don't be confused,wondering if he "can't" is way different from wondering if he "CAN "

this is not the first time rukia is separated from him.

            This is what this person said in the debate thread...

ichigo wondered why did he had to save rukia when she was originally not belonged to the real world until orihime showed him that rukia did belonged here and saving her life takes up the utmost top priority. 

            Reread the "Blank" chapter please,Ichigo never said "why bother saving Rukia?" Adding words again,sigh.When Ichigo said those words,he was talking about being affected by the fact that everyone forgets her.She was originally from the SS,so why is he bothered that everyone forgets her,though in reality,she doesn't really belong there.Read here for more elaboration on that chapter.

            In any case,there's still some changes there.Ichiruki's separation in chapter "Bleach my Soul" shows a growing fondness of Ichigo to Rukia compared to the one that took place at the "Blank" chapter.From the following chapters next to "Blank",Ichigo and Rukia's relationship/bond is growing stronger,and they became closer to each other,that's why,the separation is more painful compared to the previous one.


Part 2

How much did Ichigo missed Rukia?

            How can we figure out how much Ichigo missed Rukia?I didn't really expect that this would even have an argument,really,so...

Let's check how was he after 17 months of Rukia's absence...

I'll start with his conversation with Keigo.

            Keigo was asking Ichigo about his plans for the future,and Ichigo asked him if he's talking about college,career path,or what ever?If you haven't noticed,Keigo noticed the "whatever" part,which indicates that he was about to say something more.Keigo asked him what other choices are there,but Ichigo just answered that it was still too early to think about that.Although,I am surmising that Keigo knows what was supposed to be the "whatever" thing that Ichigo was about to say (become a shinigami).

            Ichigo is clearly trying to avoid the subject about his shinigami life.Then,Keigo still tried to provoke him to speak...

            Keigo commented that Ichigo's grades are dropping since a year and a half ago (it was from the time that he loses his power). Yet still,Ichigo defended himself for being at least on the top of the middle.

Then,Keigo brings up Rukia on the topic...

This time,Ichigo reacted and look at him...

            Ichigo asked him why did he brought her up to the topic (which is about his plans for the future,and his dropping grades).

             Keigo asked him how does he feel about Rukia not even showing up at least once in a while,doesn't he think it's kinda cold for her not to visit?

Ichigo just gave him reasons why she can't visit there...

            As you can see,Ichigo is fully aware of the reasons why Rukia won't visit the Karakura town (or them?), however,isn't he thinking about the same thing here?..

            Since Ichigo knew the reasons why she couldn't visit,why does Ichigo was still thinking about her,not visiting there even once?In any case,this is an obvious behavior of trying to avoid the subject again.He was thinking about it (Rukia not visiting even once), yet still,when Keigo asked him about exactly the same thing,Ichigo just acted like he never thinks anything about it,because there's no reason to.Ichigo didn't admit to Keigo that he was thinking about the same thing.

Then,Keigo asked him this...

And Ichigo responded with...

           For some obvious reasons,it's truly amusing that some people believes in what he said here.It really makes me wonder if they honestly believe in their own interpretation to Ichigo's response here.Please read here and see how much someone tried to refute that Ichigo missed Rukia.

Now,let's move on to this part...

Ichigo told his Dad that he was having weird dreams...

which is,this one...

Then,Isshin asked him this...

Ichigo just responded to him with...

            Another case of trying to avoid the subject,isn't it obvious?How come that he'll forgot about it,though it just happened just a few seconds or a minute ago?

Now.for this part...

            Chad commented that Ichigo is been a sad sight since he lost his power,from there we can figure out how much he's been depressed since then.

However,this is the argument now...

chad said that ichigo missed his powers....chad had never said he knew ichigo missed rukia---ichihime

            How can we figure out if Ichigo is just missing his shinigami powers and not Rukia?Does KT never made some hints to show if Rukia's absence in his life doesn't hurt him?Is it true that he is not that lonely without her?

            I'll elaborate this issue for all of you...(though of course,this is just my own interpretation to the story).
However,at least take consideration to what makes me think that way ^.^'> then,decide if I am not making any sense.

            As I have shown above,Ichigo is so adamant to avoid the topic about his shinigami life/power.This kind of behavior shows that the character is hurting when he was being forced to think about it.This is just the same with his behavior towards his Mom's death,he doesn't want to talk about it,because it hurts him.However,I understand that some people may not accept the comparison between Ichigo's Mom's death,and Rukia's absence in his life,because they thought they aren't the same,and are two different situation.Therefore,let me remind you that the only difference there is the way he was being separated from them.Masaki was killed by a  hollow when she tried to protect Ichigo,and Ichigo is blaming himself for everything that happened.On the other hand,his separation from Rukia is a different situation.With Rukia's departure,they are both in good terms,she was safe unlike his Mom.Rukia was still alive,it's just that,he won't have the ability to see her anymore.Aside from all that reasons,there's still ONE exactly the same there,and it was "their absence in his life"

And this...

ichigo and rukia has a very great bond. the conviction that they have a great bond. he is confident that his relationship with rukia remained the same from day 1 till the end of days and being separated long will not make the bond weaker. ichigo knows rukia has friends and responsibilities....and he's not going to demand that she must take some time off and visit him. he knows rukia's alive and he's going to meet rukia one day....either she come when she is free or he dies and they meet up in soul society. ichigo being lonely and ichigo missing rukia just sets the idea that ichigo is like clingy keigo.....thinking that rukia must be a horrid girl who doesn't visit her and if he's not in her life, he's going to be forgotten and put aside.

didn't you all say that ichigo and rukia has a bond that surpasses the silly, silly things?

if rukia really dies and there is no way to meet up with her.....then there's a chance that he will miss her and lonely....because the bond is separated.---ichihime

            This arguments makes me wonder if this person actually believes in his/her own reasoning.Just because the person that became so important to you is still alive,though they weren't around,you wouldn't miss them?As far as I know,the closer/important the person is to you,the more you miss them when they were not there beside you,dead or alive,am I wrong?

            As for Ichigo being sure to see Rukia again...the only possibility there,is when he died and go to SS,just like what he told to Isshin about his death,here...

             Come to think of it...Isshin even told Ichigo that he was finally able to say it (talking about shinigamis). Judging by Isshin's comments,it's proven that Ichigo really is not talking about that subject since then (just like how he's not talking about his Mom's death). Now,the only thing that we need to find out is...what hurts him when they are talking about shinigamis/power.

Take a closer look at this...

            Chad asked him to remember the times when he felt PRIDE as a shinigami (the subject that he keeps on trying to avoid), and because the situation is requiring him to do so,Ichigo did what Chad asked him to do.

Ichigo think of all the moments that made him feel proud of being a shinigami...

            Did you noticed something?Ichigo didn't have any trouble of thinking about his life as a shinigami,he was able to remember/think of the times that made him proud of being a shinigami,except ONE moment...

It was this ONE (the only ONE)

            Don't you think this was supposed to be Rukia?Isn't this the time that he went to the SS to save a certain woman?Don't you think it's weird that Ichigo's image was shown instead of Rukia?

            There's only one thing I could think of...Ichigo was still being so adamant of avoiding to think about Rukia.Even during that crucial moment,he was still refusing to think about her.Read my explanation about each panels here

            Some people are implying that KT just didn't want to put Rukia along with the others,and just wanted to make her "stand out" among the rest.However,don't you think it's kinda lame to do something like that?I'm pretty sure that,even if KT put Rukia along with the others,then showed her in the next half panel along with Ichigo on the other half,she'll still stand out no matter what.This is the reason why I couldn't agree with that kind of assumptions,but,everyone is free to believe in what they want to believe,so...I won't push this idea...

            Now.if Ichigo didn't have any trouble in thinking about his prideful moments of being a shinigami,then that means that it (his shinigami life/power) wasn't the thing that hurts him when talking about shinigamis/spirits.On the other hand,being so adamant not to think about Rukia even during that crucial moment (he needs to get his powers back),means that the thing that hurts him,is the fact that he cannot see Rukia anymore.This is the reason why he didn't want to talk about anything related to his shinigami life,which includes Rukia.This only means one thing,Ichigo does REALLY,REALLY,REALLY MISSED RUKIA,to the point that he didn't want to talk about anything that will remind him of her.

A/N :

             Ichigo sacrificed his power to be able to save everyone,he only wants everyone to be safe.During the past 17 months,everyone was in safe condition (the thing that he always wanted). All of his nakamas were capable of protecting themselves.No one needs his help.Even though he wanted to be the one who protects,he have to face the consequences of his decision (using FGT). Everything was all under control,even without his powers..except ONE thing...he couldn't see Rukia anymore.

             Ichigo only felt the pressure of not having his powers when Ishida was badly injured by an unknown enemy.That time,he wanted to be able to help his nakamas.If Ishida were injured that much,that means there is a strong enemy that was threatening the safety of those who are dear to him.

That's why,he was like this...

            Ichigo can endure the feeling of being powerless as long as his nakamas were safe,I agree.However,that doesn't mean that he is perfectly fine that he cannot see Rukia anymore,that's a different story.Being able to protect his nakamas is different from being able to see Rukia,so...don't make a mistake.Ichigo is lonely for being powerless because of not being able to protect his friends,and not being able to see Rukia.Therefore,given that his nakamas were safe during the 17 months of his powerlessness,the only other reason for him to be lonely,is not being able to see Rukia,until Ishida's attack.

Twisting and adding meaning to my arguments

            I can clearly understand that everyone has the right to stick with their own opinions,but there's someone that just entertained me to no end while I'm at the Ichiruki vs Ichihime DEBATE thread in MF.I couldn't help but sigh,and shake my head multiple times,while reading this person's responses.I suppose it'll be better to write my opinions and complains to that person here on my own Blog,to avoid rule problems,so...

I'm just so amused,that I couldn't help pointing this all out...so,here goes...

            The thing that I really,really,really don't like is,when someone is accusing me of doing/saying something that I did not...

So,I'll start with this part.

grama :

i wasn't even intending to debate. i came in as a stand that the poem can be interpreted a few ways, not necessary to have only one sole interpretation, voicing out a few examples. kawaiirukia tried to engaged me on the poem interpretations and i said i wasn't interested to argue on the interpretations. he then tried to engage me again with orihime's poem about the rain and ichigo's poem about changing the world. still i am not interested to talk about it, dismissing whatever he tried to say aside. he still engaged me. but what i was hurt about him pointing out a name stating that i shouldn't put inside it when i didn't put inside it. if you were me, would you not think that he wants to just debate but not really carefully checked it himself. how would you especially feel if someone were not careful enough in writing his arguements when you carefully reread everything to make sure that the opponents don't find fault in you? i on my side would feel insulted.

A/N :

This is grama's post...

orihime, gin and matsumoto show actions that exclusively belonged to only people who are in love. ichigo and rukia don't. we know there is something going on between gin and matsumoto through the flashbacks....gin leaving matsumoto alone on the bed(if that is not romantic, i don't know what is). and you are right these are circumstances.

And this is my comment to his/her post.

Do you see your post?There's Gin and Matsumoto,but Orihime is "alone" Ichigo wasn't there.Why?because Ichigo never showed those kind of actions towards Orihime.

And this is his/her response to me.

grama :

what's wrong with my post? 

kawairukia :

I mean,you didn't put Ichigo there,because he haven't shown those kinds of behavior towards Orihime.One sided.

grama :

i never mentioned ichigo as people who are in love? *confused*  

kawairukia :

I didn't mean anything that you said that Ichigo is in love.In fact,what I said id,you didn't put him because he doesn't show any kind of behavior towards Orihime that can be seen as love.

Then,the best part of this,is his/her response to my effort of  trying to make myself clear with my argument.

grama :

i personally feel that you just posting for the sake of posting......picking up a fight with me, even when the mole hill isn't really there. so that you can prove that ichiruki is the real deal?
i am sorry. really i am. for not putting in ichigo's name together with orihime, ichimaru and gin as people who are in love. please don't be antagonistic about this small matter.

but since you intend to 'fight' with me over the ichiruki/ichihime thing.....i guess i have no other choice but to bring in the manga. so troublesome to the forum and me.

            He/she didn't responded to my post,right?Instead of answering my argument,and give a counter argument to my post,or just ignore me if he/she couldn't say anything,or just don't want to say anything,he/she just attacked me,and accusing me of trying to pick a fight with him/her.

Then spidergoth tried to explain things to him/her too...

spidergoth :

Grama I think that you're taking the posts here a bit the wrong way. You do have your complete right to you're opinion gladly be an Ichihime fan and I don't think anyone here is trying to change your opinion.

            And that is when he/she said his/her complains about me,and some other members of that thread.I did understand that some of the responses are somehow getting pretty ugly,but they all apologized to him/her for doing so...

for example :

QueenOfJuiceBoxes :

Ah, Grama, I'm sorry if I sounded rude. I was sounding rude (going to edit my post). Sorry about that, really. Just remember that this is a debate thread, so while we are not personally attacking you, we are going to reply to your posts with how we feel. 

grama never respond to this,so I don't know if he/she actually read it.

ADVluv4life :

P.S.

I sound like a jerk, I'm sorry. I'm just very serious. 

And this is grama's wonderful response...

there are many ways to be serious without sounding like a jerk. but i think you are a jerk inside to be an outside jerk. for instance.....

            Everyone is trying to be nice as much as they could,despite his/her consistent sarcastic attitude while responding to us.sigh...

And this is his/her complaints about me...

but what i was hurt about him pointing out a name stating that i shouldn't put inside it when i didn't put inside it. if you were me, would you not think that he wants to just debate but not really carefully checked it himself. how would you especially feel if someone were not careful enough in writing his arguements when you carefully reread everything to make sure that the opponents don't find fault in you? i on my side would feel insulted.

            I admit that the first part somehow sounds rude,but I don't mean anything like that,so...my apologies...But the point is...did I say that he/she SHOULDN'T put Ichigo's name?I did not,right?Because,he/she didn't put his name.I only pointed out that he/she didn't put Ichigo along with Orihime,Gin,and Rangiku,because he/she knew that Ichigo doesn't show those kind of actions that according to him/her were exclusively belonged to a person who is in love.

            That thread is about the pairings,a pair is about TWO people,and not only one.In able to become a couple,there should be a mutual feelings between the TWO.That is why I pointed out that Ichigo was not there,because he doesn't show those kind of behavior towards Orihime.He/she says that Ichigo and Rukia don't show that kind of actions,I simply want to point out that Orihime alone won't assure Ichihime's possibility  either.Just because Orihime was in love with Ichigo,it won't be a hint of Ichihime possibility,as long as Ichigo is not showing any hint of reciprocating her feelings.Unrequited Love exists,and there are a lot of cases that a character confesses their feelings to the protagonist,and was rejected.This is the reason why I can't see a One Sided Love as a HALF DONE thingy,especially,when the other one is not showing hints of reciprocation.

            Before his/her complaints,I did tried to make it clear to him/her.Therefore,I'm confused as to why is he/she is still saying that I did said something that I did not.He/she is accusing me of not really carefully checking everything,though I honestly felt that he/she was actually the one who's doing something like that (after reading his/her complaints).

And for this part...

grama :

kawaiirukia tried to engaged me on the poem interpretations and i said i wasn't interested to argue on the interpretations. he then tried to engage me again with orihime's poem about the rain and ichigo's poem about changing the world. still i am not interested to talk about it, dismissing whatever he tried to say aside. he still engaged me.

This is his/her post that I responded...

personally i studied the poem and i can find it relating to many different people in the book.....especially if the poem if one line or two. for instance the orihime poem.....while it's true that orihime may have said it, but i can say that it was during the rain that ichigo and rukia's heart was connected. 

And this is my comment to his/her post...

Yeah,Ichigo and Rukia's heart was connected during that time.However,Orihime at that time just heard the story about Ichigo's Mom's death.Orihime wanted to be able to empathize with Ichigo,but she couldn't,because she doesn't understand Ichigo's pain completely,since she doesn't know the whole story.Then Orihime thinks about being able to understand him just a little.That poem is talking about,being able to understand completely,as if they are just one person (connected). While Orihime wishes to understand Ichigo's pain completely,Rukia on the other hand,is the one that was given that kind of opportunity.Orihime can only understand the pain of losing someone that is dear to them,but she can never imagine the pain of being the cause of their deaths,which is the thing that happened to both Ichigo and Rukia.

And this is his/her response to me...

and your point is?? rukia is suitable for ichigo while orihime is not? okay, that's your interpretation. i shall leave it as that.

What is it that he/she said again?

grama :

kawaiirukia tried to engaged me on the poem interpretations and i said i wasn't interested to argue on the interpretations.

            Where on earth did he/she said that?Yeah,he/she said that " okay, that's your interpretation. i shall leave it as that. " It would have been better if this is the only thing that he/she have said,the argument will automatically be closed.Unfortunately...he/she tries to add a meaning to my post,which is "and your point is?? rukia is suitable for ichigo while orihime is not?"

            Since I never meant anything like that,I tried to explain to him/her that I don't mean anything like that... I thought if he/she really get my point,or he/she is just confused with my post.

Here's my response to his/her (sarcasm).

My point is...it was definitely Orihime to Ichigo.You said that it can be about Ichigo and Rukia,since their hearts are connected at that time.I am saying that it was Orihime to Ichigo,because the poem is talking about,wanting to connect with another person.I don't want to repeat everything,so if you could reread my post?

Then he/she replied me with...

neither do i want to repeat again when i say a poem can be interpreted as many as possible, not just one way and i'm not saying everyone is wrong. do you even read my post properly?

            He/she said it,"poem can be interpreted as many as possible, not just one way" He/she posted his/her opinion/interpretation about the poem,and I posted my interpretation about it as well.In any case,I only tried to explain what I mean there,because he/she said...

and your point is?? rukia is suitable for ichigo while orihime is not? okay, that's your interpretation. i shall leave it as that.  

            I know he/she is being sarcastic,but it also made me feel like he/she actually thinks like that about my post.Or maybe,he/she thinks that it is one of the reason why I support Ichiruki (though I am not actually a shipper). And I don't like it when someone is adding a meaning to my words.

The same thing happened with the rest of our conversations...

grama :

the same applies to the 'no one else can change my world' poem. in that poem i can find two people who can be connected to that poem also. aizen, who thinks that with his own hand he can change the world, no one else.....or ichigo who feels that if he doesn't win the fight with byakuya, it will not change anything. 

kawairukia :

Aizen is talking about the one who would change the world,which is "himself". When Ichigo thinks that if he didn't defeat Byakuya,nothing would change.Ichigo is talking about Rukia's future.He needed to defeat Byakuya,to change Rukia's destiny.At that part of the story,Ichigo said there,that Rukia is the one that changes his destiny/world,so he's the one who's world have been changed,not Aizen,and not Rukia either.Those chapters are dedicated to Ichigo,saving the one who changed his world,so...no,it can't be Aizen,and can't be because Ichigo wants to defeat Byakuya,it was simply Ichigo--->Rukia.

grama :

ok, that's your point.....ichigo--->rukia because rukia changed ichigo's world. that sounds so like obligation love....she changed my world so i must love her.

have you ever heard the two train of thoughts?? Only God can changed my world /or/ Only I can changed my world?

that's why the poem sounded like this.....that's right, no one else change my world. you need the above thoughts for it to complete the poem.

carry on.....

kawairukia :

I never said anything that it will obligate Ichigo to love Rukia.I only mean to say that it was Ichigo--->Rukia.Never did Isay about it being romantic either,so I am confused.BTW,which volume was it again?

            I felt confused with my response from my previous post either,because I am so sleepy during those days.To make a better interpretation,I want to make sure if I am talking about the right subject.He/she said that the poem says "Yes,no one can change my world"

but the only one that I know is this one...

            It says "The one that changed his world" So I responded based from this one,I want to know if I am talking about the right subject,that's why I asked which volume was it.I want to search for the japanese version,to see if there's a mistranslation.

Unfortunately,he/she just responded me with....

okay.....Ichigo--->Rukia as in hate? despise? pity? goodwill? love?

yeah right you never say it about being romantic either. 

 try and keep up with what you say in the past. or else this debate will turn into, 'i just want to win you over, i keep talking everything until you give up.'

            I was merely talking about the poem,then suddenly,he/she is already talking about obligation love,not responding properly with my post again,sigh.

All his/her responses are just like that

kawairukia :

I never said that he will never realize Orihime's importance to him.I said,we never see some realization in his thoughts about Orihime's importance to him during and after her rescue,which is the best time to see that kind of moments. 

            I talked about Ichigo having some realization after Rukia's rescue,while there is none for Orihime,and he/she didn't respond to me properly,again...

grama :

you can say your opinions until the cows come home or the moon turn blue it wouldn't make any difference. i just don't want to be like you. it wouldn't help the pairing be a canon one.

I can clearly see what he/she meant when he/she said this...

kawaiirukia tried to engaged me on the poem interpretations and i said i wasn't interested to argue on the interpretations. he then tried to engage me again with orihime's poem about the rain and ichigo's poem about changing the world. still i am not interested to talk about it, dismissing whatever he tried to say aside. he still engaged me.

but i'm sure there is a unwritten clause somewhere that says all opinions whether right or wrong are to be respected. a person pursuing this matter again and again encroaches it.

i just can't stand repeating the same thing again and again which is you are free to interprete yourself as anyway you want and you don't need my help just as i don't need your help.

i don't believe in winning you over, converting you from where you come from....i just want to see what people's take about certain matters. intepretating poems especially ichigo's 49 poem is not one of them. discussing about the duality views that ichiruki have on shoujo is an interesting topic. and how a love pairing shipping is determined individuality--your ideal love should be. these are topics that i like to discuss and perhaps debate. ---grama

            I'm pretty sure,he/she means that I (and the other members) am trying to push my opinion on him/her,that's why I (and the other members) kept on repeating my words.Although in reality,it was because he/she isn't responding to me properly,and is adding meaning to my words,which is the thing that I was trying to explain,and not my opinion about the topic.I am definitely not trying to win him/her over,I simply wanted to see his/her opinions about everything.I am absolutely fine with him/her giving his/her opinion about my argument,but not adding a meaning to it.I was hoping that he/she could give me a nice argument in favor of Ichihime,but unfortunately,he/she couldn't and just end up attacking me.

            I'm not bothered with his sarcasm,in fact,it really makes me laugh.Why?Because,instead of countering my argument,he/she is just attacking me,makes me think that he/she couldn't think of something to counter my argument.Countering an argument in a thread like that doesn't mean that we are fighting.We are just cross discussing every topics related.It is meant to see how far you can give proofs and counter an arguments,without bashing the others.Respond with your argument,present your proofs that supports your assumptions,that is the purpose of a debate,isn't it?

           He/she posted a comment on that thread,which is a DEBATE thread.If he/she didn't intend to debate,then why post a comment?

For example...

grama :

i don't believe in winning you over, converting you from where you come from....i just want to see what people's take about certain matters. intepretating poems especially ichigo's 49 poem is not one of them. 

And this is what he/she said earlier...

i wasn't even intending to debate. i came in as a stand that the poem can be interpreted a few ways, not necessary to have only one sole interpretation, voicing out a few examples.

             If he/she just didn't want to talk about it,then why did he/she post a comment about the poem?He/she thinks it can be interpreted in many ways,but the others have a different opinion about it.Posting a comment in a debate thread,you should expect that there would be people will  agree or disagree with you,it's a common logic.If you don't want to debate,then don't post anything.But if you want to discuss about something,then post the topic that you wanted to talk about. 

grama :

discussing about the duality views that ichiruki have on shoujo is an interesting topic. and how a love pairing shipping is determined individuality--your ideal love should be. these are topics that i like to discuss and perhaps debate.

            That is a debate thread,it is not a forum that is meant for talking about your ideal love.That thread is meant for showing proofs and reasons why you like or thinks that the pairing you support does have a possibility to prevail.Hence the title is "Ichiruki VS Ichihime".

Ichigo didn't missed Rukia during the 17 months of her absence?

This is a response for grama.

Here's the link to this topic :

http://forums.mangafox.com/threads/246520-IchiHime-Vs.-IchiRuki-Version-3-Read-Post-1/page207

NOTE : I put my response on grama here in my blog,because I don't have much time typing and looking for the chapters and panels,I only have few minutes each day to post a comment,so I can only do this here without repeating everything,every time I logged in.I really liked putting the panels while I am explaining my opinion,so please just bear with me.

ARGUMENT :

Ichiruki : The volume 49 poem was about Rukia. Non IR fans japanese translators and japanese fans themselves said the one referred to was a female, Rukia. "Can I keep up with the speed of the world without you in it?" was about Rukia.

grama : that's interpretation. especially since ichigo in that book said that he doesn't miss rukia outright. there's no saying which one is telling the truth.....the poem or ichigo himself.

A/N :

The time that Ichigo said he doesn't miss Rukia outright,is this,right?

Now,how can we say if he's lying or not?

            His expression says so,right?However,there are still some people who would like to interpret it another way.In that case,let's try to find another proof that Ichigo is lying when he said that.

grama :

don't you think it's kinda cold that she hasn't come back even once?

of course it is not! she isn't the representative of karakura town to begin with, it's normal for her not to come.

i bet you are going to say......ichigo is probably lying to his friend(Keigo) that he actually want her to come to see him.

A/N :

Did you noticed this?

Keigo is asking him about Rukia haven't visited even once,and Ichigo replied...

            Ichigo is giving him reasons why Rukia won't visit the Karakura town.In other words,he is aware of the fact that she won't come and visit the Karakura town,yet still...

            Why on earth is he thinking about exactly the same stuff earlier?He knew the reasons why Rukia won't visit there,but why is he still thinking of her not visiting there,though he knew the reasons why?Isn't that a sign of being in a denial state?He was thinking about it as well,but when Keigo asked him about it,he acted like he wasn't thinking about it at all,because there's no reason for doing so.Now,tell me he's not lying.

grama :

i'm fine with peace till i die. that's right. ..... i just dreamed of a life where i couldn't see them (ghosts......guess what shinigamis are in the category of what normal human being cannot see....where i couldn't see shinigami>>rukia is one of the shinigamis??).

am i now allowed to say that ichigo doesn't really miss rukia ....he just take things as it comes and goes?

A/N :

Actually,isn't this is what he said COMPLETELY?

Let's analyze his statements.

            If you haven't noticed,Ichigo is talking about the "him" BEFORE.He said he never felt superiority because he could see spirits.Why do you think he feels that way?

It was because of this...

             "I never once thought that I could make a living and help someone with it."

             Ichigo at that time,do not see the importance of his ability.What is so special about it?He's just being able to see them.He couldn't see anything useful about it,he doesn't know that one day,that ability of his will be the thing that would make him someone who could protect and help the others.Since he couldn't see the purpose of having that ability...

             "I just longed for a life where I couldn't see them"

             That is what he always wished for ever since before he met Rukia.However,when he met Rukia and he became a shinigami,he had the taste of a life where he can use his ability to protect mountain loads of people (the thing that he never thought would be possible). Unfortunately,after his fight with Aizen,he lost that ability completely,which is his current situation in that chapter.

That's why he said lastly...

            "And I finally got what I've always wanted"

            Ichigo at that moment is reflecting on his previous feelings about having that ability (seeing spirits). His statement is not about the thing that he wanted at that moment.

Besides...            

What is Ichigo's reaction when he was starting to lose that ability?

 Zooming in...

            As you can see,Ichigo shows everyone that he was just fine with it,but look at his expression before he asked them if he could go outside.Is that how someone who really wanted to lose his ability to see spirits should look like?I doubt it,how about you?...

And for this part...

(ghosts......guess what shinigamis are in the category of what normal human being cannot see....where i couldn't see shinigami>>rukia is one of the shinigamis??).

Is this actually true?

Rukia : Don't look so sad.Even if you can no longer see me,I can still you.

Ichigo : What?That doesn't make me happy at all.And I wasn't making a sad face either.

Is this not a sad face?

I highly doubt that Ichigo is not sad,eh?

Also,you (grama) said...
 
also, muddling up with ichigo crying because he lost his power thanks to ginjou with feeling lost without power in the 17 months is not really a smart move….especially since the 17 months of powerlessness was him resigning to the fact that he doesn’t mind being lost his power as long as his friends are save while ginjou robbed him of the power that he worked for his friends(you have orihime flashback….no rukia flashback*victory sign*). 

A/N :

            If it's true that he was just fine without his power during the past 17 months,as long as his friends are safe,why does Chad here is saying that "You've been a sad sight since you lost your powers" No one is in danger during that time.It was only until 17 months 'til Ishida's attack,so...

             Chad also pointed out that Ichigo probably thinks that he was hiding it.In other words,Ichigo is definitely in his denial/pretentious state.

In that case,based from what you said here...

if it is really the intentions of the author not to portray the character as telling the truth, he would validate his point (character not telling the truth) straightaway. it's obvious that the character is not being truthful to his friends especially when the friends point out. 

            Since  Chad pointed out that Ichigo is not fine being powerless,it's clear that he would never wish to lose his powers,that will make him unable to see spirits...

That's why,this...

i'm fine with peace till i die. that's right. ..... i just dreamed of a life where i couldn't see them (ghosts......guess what shinigamis are in the category of what normal human being cannot see....where i couldn't see shinigami>>rukia is one of the shinigamis??). 

             is a clearly misinterpreted part.Because this isn't Ichigo thinking about wanting not to see spirits again.It is Ichigo reflecting on his previous feelings of having the ability to see spirits.

For the last part...

he just take things as it comes and goes?

If Ichigo really is taking things as it comes and goes

             Ichigo himself was surprised with his behavior as well,he must have thought that he have managed to move on without it,it was 'till then that he realized that he still haven't managed to get over with it.Along with this is Chad's conversation with Ichigo,where he said that Ichigo is trying to hide it (the panel that I put above).

Now,for this part...

grama :

but i want to point out something that upset me very much....it's the.....how do i say it...i'm not sure whether it's kubo tite's faults that made me upset or it's the ichiruki fans, i think it's both but personally i think more could be because fans' selective reading and logical comprehension. i find it very 'crazy/weird' whenever the ichiruki fans dismissed what ichigo is saying to himself to be a lie.....especially when ichigo said it aloud in his mind. no seriously, you really think that one could actually lie to himself, say the inobvious thing that he knows he himself cannot be lied? fine, we can allow some deception happened when one say to his friends, he doesn't want to be truthful with others...... but to himself??.....that person is certainly a mental case if he cannot be honest with himself. can you really live up with that....or in another words, would you still want to read on when you know ichigo isn't someone who is truthful to himself, especially when he is voicing his thoughts?

A/N :

This is what Ichigo thought in his mind...to himself...

     

And this...

i'm fine with peace till i die. that's right. ..... i just dreamed of a life where i couldn't see them (ghosts......guess what shinigamis are in the category of what normal human being cannot see....where i couldn't see shinigami>>rukia is one of the shinigamis??). 

            ...I have already explained above,that Ichigo is reflecting his previous feelings regarding his ability to see spirits,so...yeah,he wasn't lying there.Ichigo really didn't liked his ability to see spirits before he met Rukia.Chad confirms it too,that Ichigo is hiding it,so...Ichigo is definitely not happy without his powers.In other words,why would he wish to lose that ability,if the truth is,he really liked having it now?

grama :

 i understand that ichigo would probably not tell out the real thing to rukia as in 'i love you/ i miss you' straight to the face to prevent awkwardness. but behind her back? if he really really miss her? (noticed, i used really, really miss her to note deepness of missing her) he should probably voice it out to the readers.
    
             Like I have shown from the first part of this essay,Ichigo is thinking about Rukia not visiting to the Karakura town even once.However,when Keigo asked him about the same thing,he acted that he have never thought about it,because there's no reason to.Ichigo didn't admit to Keigo that he was thinking about that as well,though...like you (grama) said,Rukia wasn't there,she won't hear him,there's no reason to be shy admitting that he was thinking about it too?The same could be said for Ichigo not telling him that he missed Rukia,even if he does.Rukia's presence is not the issue,it was Ichigo's denial state is the issue.

Done with this subject.

I hope you won't give me this...

grama :

ichigo missed rukia....i never said that he didn't miss her......i just said that ichigo didn't feel lonely and perhaps NEVER REALLY, REALLY, REALLY missed her because he is confident that he's going to meet her.  

A/N :

This is what you said...

that's interpretation. especially since ichigo in that book said that he doesn't miss rukia outright. there's no saying which one is telling the truth.....the poem or ichigo himself.

Then you said...

i never said that ichigo doesn't miss rukia....he said it in the book.  

            When you said Ichigo said it in the book,and that,he said it outright,it sounds like...how can I say it...it sounds like you are saying that it is what the manga is trying to tell us.

Then you bring all this...

Attachment 193425

don't you think it's kinda cold that she hasn't come back even once?
of course it is not! she isn't the representative of karakura town to begin with, it's normal for her not to come.

i bet you are going to say......ichigo is probably lying to his friend(Keigo) that he actually want her to come to see him.

Attachment 193426

i'm fine with peace till i die. that's right. ..... i just dreamed of a life where i couldn't see them (ghosts......guess what shinigamis are in the category of what normal human being cannot see....where i couldn't see shinigami>>rukia is one of the shinigamis??).

am i now allowed to say that ichigo doesn't really miss rukia ....he just take things as it comes and goes?

by the way.....i always wanted to know ichigo could have probably used the word 'maybe' to show that maybe he does feel lonely or not. instead it's a hell no. why is it a bit difficult for him to express how he feels if it is true that he loves rukia? you need to pretend that you don't love her when you actually do? if rukia is around, i understand why he needs to pretend and not say outrightly to her that he missed her. but when she is not around.....does he have to? my only conclusion was perhaps the loneliness was never really felt for him to not say so.

Attachment 193428

even at the beginning, pre-ss arc we have ichigo's mind saying.....i should try and avoid getting close with her.
this is the reason why i don't see it as a feasible pairing.
 
            Judging by how you keep on showing us panels,it's clear that those are the reasons why you think he doesn't missed Rukia.Seriously,try to put yourself in our situation...

Then,later...you started to say something like this...

and no....i didn't say that ichigo doesn't miss her as close friend. i just said that the poem doesn't say of ichigo and rukia, it's more of ichigo and orihime. saying the poem is as if talking about ichigo and orihime does not translate to ichigo not missing rukia. and yes, i did prove in the manga that ichigo in his inner mind did say that he doesn't mind not seeing ghosts (or shinigamis, which that includes rukia). because he didn't at all feel lonely. and not feeling lonely doesn't really translate to not missing her. he got other friends and family that can keep him company. 

             You didn't explain your reason for bringing up those panels.Not only that,instead of saying that he's just not that lonely without her,what you always say is that...it is what he said to himself,so why think that he was lying?Or that,Chad and Orihime didn't mentioned that he really missed Rukia...PROBABLY,BECAUSE HE REALLY DIDN'T MISS RUKIA.Or...why tell a lie,though Rukia wasn't there,there's no reason to be shy.Ichigo is saying it in his inner mind,we are asking him to be truthful...there's a lot more.

            Really,if you are in our situation,will you understand that the person is just trying to explain,that Ichigo is just not that lonely,and not that he/she was saying that he didn't missed Rukia?

Well,in any case,since you said...

ichigo missed rukia....i never said that he didn't miss her......i just said that ichigo didn't feel lonely and perhaps NEVER REALLY, REALLY, REALLY missed her because he is confident that he's going to meet her.  

            This means that the argument about Ichigo not missing Rukia is already done,since we all agree that he did missed her.The only thing that is up for a debate is...whether Ichigo does REALLY,REALLY,REALLY MISSED RUKIA.

Okay everyone,I've decided to write my opinion about an essay,because I received some suggestions from some people to read it.

Here's the link : http://kawaichappy-areplytoberuhime219sessay.blogspot.com/2012/02/page-1.html

Feel free to tell me your opinion.I won't mind which ship you support,I'm definitely open for consideration,so please be civil.